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    Hi Ben,

    I would like to keep my own contributions to it, and maybe a few others. I’ll collect them sometime today and move them to another venue–maybe diigo. that’s where Gene keeps his info.



    On Dec 31, 2017, at 7:34 AM, antlerboy-benjamintaylor antlerboy-benjamintaylor@model.report wrote:

    Hey all

    Scott, who runs model.report, has had some data problems. The site is a hassle for him and therefore, he proposed to Gene Bellinger and myself that he delete it. That’s the reason for the ‘model report is deprecated’ message that you may see if you come to the site.

    Natually, Gene (who sees, I think, the creative power of destruction) is in favour of deleting the site - he makes the point there are c200 users and <12 active posters, which I agree, in the scale of the internet, is small potatoes. He deleted his own account and therefore his c200 posts and responses on here some time ago.

    Natually, I, who am somewhat resistant to destruction, and have invested quite a bit of time building this as a repository of all forms of systems thinking, would like to keep the site. I’m prepared to find some ways to help with that effort (financial, organisational, whatever) if it helps.

    So, while I would like to keep the site regardless, Gene has challenged me to prove that others want to keep it to. So, if you do, please respond!

    cheers Benjamin

    Vote: https://model.report/s/4yxsfr

    – Modify your email notifications: https://model.report/settings

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      I didn’t read the study itself but the article is really interesting. Agriculture is a classic complex system and while I’m sure there is truth to the theory that climate change leads to increased yields but also decreased nutrient density, we also know that the widespread shift to industrialised agriculture has decreased soil health and plant nutrient density as well. See http://bionutrient.org/ for more on this, incl the estimate that nutrient density has decreased by about 30% since WWII… Point being that there are multiple forces contributing to this problem.

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        Yes, the matter is complex, and it would be difficult to believe that the factors you listed didn’t play a role.

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        Peer support creates our own system for systems practices.

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            Thanks, Gene. I didn’t connect the pattern to the last two economic downturns; the analogy seems to fit. Looking forward to the perspective.

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            Thank you, Rob, for sharing these examples of the individual-machine-social system. How can we get the “learn more” to be a working part of our systems? In other words, similar to the way the aviation industry redesigned the controls to make the human-machine interface facilitate doing the right thing, how might we redesign our thinking-action-interaction systems to facilitate doing the right thing? I struggle with this, knowing that the social interaction piece is key to overcoming the fundamental attribution error, yet finding that that’s the piece that “cries for blood.” Must it be one at a time? What have others found to be effective?

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              Very systemic! Dr. Myers treats patterns, not symptoms; people, not injuries; and his comment about evidence and prevention was wonderful. Thanks, Mike!

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                It’s great isn’t it. I wasn’t sure about posting it, but it’s a type of thinking everyone can benefit from. The video was posted by http://www.functionalpatterns.com/ if you’re interested in systemic fitness ideas inspired by Dr Myers.

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                  Sounds similar to the Shewhart Cycle–plan-do-check-act, sometimes plan-do-study-adjust. Works well when the do-check steps aren’t skipped :-)

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                    • Personally relevant? <10%
                    • Read? <10%
                    • I rate the ones that REALLY interest me, but don’t know what happens after that.
                    • I comment on why I’m interested.
                    • I forgot it was searchable.

                    There is a huge amount of information that gets posted. I don’t feel I have an informed enough opinion or expertise to contribute, or even comment very much. It wouldn’t break my heart if Model Report was closed. I personally haven’t found an effective way to use it. Maybe that’s the missing link, if there is one.

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                      Thanks, Benjamin! This is a shift from traditional thinking, thinking that is often dysfunctional. Especially, the idea of goals. The inner contradictions often prevent goal-setting (as it is typically defined) from being effective. Lots to work through.

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                        I have used this feature and appreciate it.

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                          What thoughts do you have about: 1. overcoming these traits in ourselves? 2. helping others who wish to overcome these traits in themselves? 3. preventing these traits from derailing an otherwise positive activity when others are unable to acknowledge/grow through them?

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                            Ben: “is there any way to moderate or discourage this kind of tendency, use the positive without the negative?”

                            One way to moderate and discourage is to not take part in these kind of groups dominated by the Systems Curmudgeon® and spend time and energy elsewhere.

                            I found a reference to this in a paper on Place Management:

                            Jessop, B. (2002), Governance and meta-governance in the face of complexity: on the roles of requisite variety, reflexive observation, and romantic irony in participatory governance”, in Heinelt, H., Getimis, P., Kafkalas, G., Smith, R. and Swyngedouw, E. (Eds), Participatory Governance in Multi-level Context, LeskeþBudrich, Opladen.

                            Unfortunately I can’t get hold of it – but I love the title…. its good enough.

                            I especially like the reference to “romantic irony” and requisite variety: the notion that irony has a place in systems practice and that irony exists in a communication channel

                            My art education exposed me to both cybernetics and irony. I wrote an essay on whether Jeremy Dellar’s winning of the Turner Prise signalled a death of irony. I found that there are varieties of irony: plain Socratic irony - saying the opposite of what you mean to provoke questioning in the listener, Romantic irony used by the likes of Swift where the reader was complicit in the irony and or course Post-modern irony - there’s no truth to be ironic with.

                            SC®’s with backgrounds in hard science and engineering (don’t they all?) may find the playful use of irony highly annoying, but it’s interesting that Jessop, B. (2002) puts it together with reflexivity and meta-governance.

                            To accompany Systems Curmudgeon® I like to propose Post Ironic Art Curmudgeon®, an equally annoying character: equally verbose and pompous. (He perhaps works as a professor of Art somewhere near a city near Stockport.)

                            Let’s – as a thought experiment – place the two Curmudgeons as binary opposites. In between we have a middle ground where playful irony is an acceptable rhetorical trope acceptable in everyday communication. A place where ambiguity is not only tolerated but accepted as an essential pre-requisite for effective reflexivity or communication about communication.

                            Part of both Curmudgeons' make up is a kind of extremism where the theory of communication is always to the fore, where expert knowledge has to be displayed in every utterance and action in order to “teach” people and remain “authentic”. They tend to become people with “very few friends” and tend to join social groups defined by clearly defined understanding of ideas and clear heirarchy.

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                            Very nice review, Gene. You certainly deserve it!

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                              In re-reading this several times, it occurs to me that in most systems models I remember seeing (or building), the intervenor is not represented, at least not explicitly. I suppose some therapeutic systems models, in which the role that a therapist takes is explicit, might be an exception. Perhaps it should be the rule?

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                                Possibly the short- versus long-term aspect of direct influences and feedback loops, respectively. There is a psychological bias toward short-term results (rewards).

                                My systems thinking came the hard way.

                                If you are seeking an example that will impress others with the power of a feedback loop, I fear the savings account will not suffice, as interest rates don’t really affect them until several decades have passed. Perhaps the example of a loan will demonstrate, as many more people are cognizant of paying back way more than what was initially borrowed because of interest rates.